I knew a transgender girl in school. (UK) she wasn’t right.
She was clearly in need of help, about her identity about her being.
She was not well.
They aren’t normal they’re the lowest of society the transgendered. And I don’t mean that in a hateful way.i mean in the same vein as the retarded, the homeless and the mentally ill.
They need slow and gradual support not someone saying be brave, roar or haphazardly given the option to give in to their psychosis after a short discussion.
It’s doesn’t work like that.
How awful that as a species we take the lowest of society and we thrust them into the spotlight for our own entertainment, or we parade the things we do for them as clout to show off to the rest of the normal people.
We can’t seem to just humbly take care of them.
Anyway that girl transitioned.
I wish the best for her and I hope her torments finally over.
But I really doubt that to be true.
So many frens here with a mindset that belongs in the 50s. Maybe humans, sexuality and gender is a bit more complicated than what we first imagined? Whats wrong with that?
Yes, it is the current year. All frens should have a more accepting and progressive mindset to compliment the fact that we don’t live in a very discriminatory and oppressive society that is hateful towards minorities such as trans-frens.
I do not have a problem with all followers of Islam, but I do have a problem with the religion itself which seems to encourage discrimination against certain minorities. As with all religious text, though, the Qur’an is up to interpretation.
I know. Im all about the fren support I see here most of the time. But I find it ironic how incredibly toxic, narrowminded and judgmental it is at the same time. Im getting tired of it tbh.
Just trying to educate people. But some peoples biggest fear is knowledge and changing their views. I see a lot of non frenly behaviour here too. Completely agree there
Its not an insult its an accurate description of the behavior you have presented which I can safely assume is your m.o. thus taking offense to it means you know its wrong but you behave like this anyways.
Where have I taken offense to anything? Even though I recognize a pathetic attempt at an insult when someone has nothing else left to support their argument does not mean I have taken offense. I have been called much worse by better than you.
Sorry u can't learn how to be ok with people disagreeing with u. It must be hard to make frens being so intolerant of other people's stupidity. Not everyone is smart or agrees with u, and that's ok. Being frens is about looking past other people's flaws, i'm still your fren! :)
Not if what they want to do to themselves is obviously stupid and harmful in nature. Sometimes frens are confused. They need support from their frens and a hug, not a knife to chopchop the willie.
Would I be a good fren if I allowed self harm due to mental illness? Are you sure that’s the kind of frenship you want? Sound like a non fren circle jerk to me
no secret messages, only nonfrens do secret messages.
from TheDuderinoAbides sent 2 minutes ago
I know cognitive dissonance is hard and you probably wont realize this: But how does it feel knowing you are contributing to people commiting suicide and making the world a shittier place? Do you even consider it?
Nonfrens answer questions with a question.
So again I ask
What happens when a fren starts slashing their wrists in the bathtub, can we tell them what to do then?
Sexuality can be complicated fren, but not gender. You either have xy genitalia or xx genitalia. Or, if you're unfortunate, you could be born with a mutation that leaves you somewhere in between. Such a mutation is considerably rare though. Not very complicated. Gender-dysphoria is a thing, but it doesn't explain the 80 or so made up genders that nonfrens want every political and professional institution to include in censuses and such.
Gender is the social and cultural differences between man and woman, while sex is the biological differences. It's been this way for decades now and isn't anything new.
New enough that they didn't teach that when I was in school almost five years ago. Makes sense fren. Thank you for taking the time explain that frenly and concisely. Still doesn't explain the 80+ made up genders though.
Thanks for listening fren. I'm always happy to explain. I'll explain that for you if you'd like too, although I might get some things wrong since I'm a scientist and not a sociologist.
Getting from gender as a social construct to the idea of multiple genders requires a little explaining. Going from gender is the social and cultural differences between man and woman, we can then therefore conclude that someone can choose to express more masculine or more feminine. If you were to, say, write down every single masculine trait and every single feminine trait, you could then choose which ones to express. At this point, you could classify people by how masculine or feminine they are rather than by if they present majority masculine or majority feminine. Once you get here, you realise that gender is a spectrum of levels of masculine or feminine expression, rather than a binary man or woman.
That probably sounds like a big jump to make? But society at large already does this (albeit to a lesser extent) with terms such as calling a masculine woman a tomboy or a more feminine man a twink.
Some people take the next step and decide to classify the spectrum from "most masculine" to "most feminine" into a variety of different genders. Think similarly to every colour is simply somewhere on the spectrum between red, green, and blue, but rather than calling a colour 255r,255g,0b, we give it a label: yellow. Rather than calling someone a woman who presents with a lot of masculine traits, we give them the label tomboy.
That's all cool, bro. Makes sense. Now this stuff became very political, lately, and people over exaggerate it to a point where the subject becomes repulsive. Also add all the mentally ill representatives the subject managed to assemble. Not cool. On top of that, there's no gain in this. The ratio of "advancing the human race"/"attention on it" is just wrong.
Gender oles is when you do the opposite, take someone's gender and assign them traits they must like. Like say someone identifies as "yellow", gender roles would be saying oh they must be 255, 255, 0 when in actuality there a whole wide range of yellows
to all frens: the sex/gender dichotomy is a natural fact, not a modern invention. It’s something we discovered about reality, not something that was memed into reality by academics with a social agenda. The way we know it is a part of human nature is because it goes back hundreds of thousands of ye-
it’s been this way for decades now
hmm, really? decades? That’s kind of curious frens, now I’m all confused :(
Definitions change all the time, it needn't be so confusing fren. Think about the earth being flat which was believed for hundreds of thousands of years but we now know that to not be true. Or that the earth was the center of the universe, or that the sun was a God. Just because something changes doesn't mean that it's wrong.
And that's only the English definitions of the word. Historically, there are references to people of a third gender dating back to the birthplace of civilisation in ancient Mesopotamia thousands of years BCE.
And the definition has changed but only to reflect the usage of the word. Historically it's been the same all along. Joan of Arc was a woman and when expressing as a man was referred to as a man. Do you think that ancient civilisations defined gender by people's genes? Did Kings require knights to be publically pantsed to prove that they had a penis before they could be knighted? No, because that wasn't how someone's gender is discerned.
There have always been feminine and masculine, fren. It is not until very recently that people said, hey, actually if you are a very feminine boy then you should give yourself a bloody front hole and after that everyone has to cal you a girls name and say “yes, that is a girl” or they get in trouble :(
I agree with you that we should look to reduce surgeries when they are unnecessary fren. That is exactly why it's so important that we separate the terms sex and gender. That way, people with Gender Dysphoria don't feel the need to change their sex to feel like the gender they present as. Going by the definition of gender is expression, someone suffering from GD doesn't need to undergo sex reassignment surgery because by changing their expression they can change their gender. This way, a person suffering from GD only needs to change what they do to relieve their stress from GD, while if you define gender as the same as sex, they may need to have unalterable and potentially life-threatening surgery for the same relief.
If your goal is to improve peoples' lives fren, then accepting that gender and sex are different is the way to go about it. To do otherwise would be extremely unfrenly.
If your goal is to improve peoples' lives fren, then accepting that gender and sex are different is the way to go about it. To do otherwise would be extremely unfrenly.
fren, I think you and I agree it is good to be frenly, and we even agree that it’s frenly to improve people’s lives. Where I think we disagree is that I’m not so interested in expensing mental energy on improving the lives of a tiny minority of mentally deranged people; I want to see the most improvement for the most people. It’s utilitarian frenliness, and imo it was common sense until, basically, the cultural revolution of the 1960s. Since then, the large majority always have to change, to adjust, to bend over backwards for the tiny minority. Everyone is forced to be exposed to stuff that makes them uncomfortable just so a handful of mentally deranged people can be comfortable. That’s the new ethos of what it is to be frenly and I just fundamentally disagree with it.
I have to strongly disagree with you there fren. Firstly it costs almost nothing for you mental to accommodate these situations. How much mental energy does it take for you to call someone by a different name? Do you not have any frens with nicknames? And this small point of debate actually has widely reaching utilitarian prospects.
Gender is a social construct built around social and cultural norms. It is fundamentally different to sex. It's pretty easy to show that there is a difference, since all that you need to do is show that the same person in two different societies is the same sex but is seen as having a different/abnormal gender. Take a woman with short hair and wearing pants and a button down shirt and show them to someone from a few hundred years ago and they assume she is a man. Take a baby swaddled in pink and show them to someone from today and someone from a hundred years ago, and they'll both assume different genders. But the person's sex has stayed the same the entire time. Therefore, it can be seen that gender and sex are indeed separate. That sex is determined by biological factors, while gender is determined by social and cultural factors.
Once you accept this truth fren, things start to change. It's not a difficult task to call someone the right pronouns or the right name, because that is how they express and hence what their actual gender is. You don't have to bend over backwards to reach that point, rather, it is just how things are. And this has wide-reaching implications on improving things for everyfren as well. Gender is a social construct, so why does child custody default to favouring women? Why are we ok with men dying in the front lines but not women? Why are men assumed to be better workers than women? Why is it that being a stay at home mum is more respectable than being a stay at home dad?
Suddenly, you realise there's a lot of issues that can be fixed here. Accepting trans frens is simply the smallest and easiest step. They make it clear for you what gender they express as, they correct you if you're wrong (usually politely), and as you said yourself fren, they are a minority so you're unlikely to encounter the issue very much. But understand that being frenly is always the best option, and that this is a small microcosm that reflect a larger reality that your utilitarian ideology can surely understand the impact of. Noone is asking for social treatment or extra rights fren, they're only asking you to treat them exactly as you'd treat anyone else: By calling them by their name and referring to them as the right gender.
Im not talking about sexuality or the 80 made up genders. Im talking about how people identity and view themselves as a gender.
Biological factors are not always sufficient determinants of whether a person considers themselves a man or is considered a man. Intersex individuals, who have physical or genetic features considered to be mixed or atypical for one sex or the other, may use other criteria in making a clear determination. There are also transgender and transsexual men, who were assigned as female at birth, but identify as men; there are varying social, legal and individual definitions with regard to these issues. (See trans man.)
But it is, fren. These people are lost, trapped within their own minds. Just below the surface of conscious thought, they see that their existence is hollow.
Unable to silence their internal cries of inadequacy, they seek to shield themselves from them by becoming what society pities. To protect themselves from the harshness of normal life by becoming a perpetual dependent of others. A protected class.
But they will never be satisfied with what they find. Cursed to forever wander a barren path, they will seek their false god until it claims them. Forever lost.
you're confusing sex with gender,
sex is binary ( unless you got some unfortunate chromosomes). gender is instead, according to these people, a social construct.
It's not a word made up in the 80s; it's just that it's around that time at which it started being used to refer to someone's sex, which was likely caused by people associating sex with eroticism and thus choosing to use another word.
Gender is not equivalent to sexuality from what I understand. This fren will not pretend to be an expert, but simply state his understanding. Gender is how we behave socially and what's expected. Our sex is determined biologically.
Granted I learned this from a ridiculously liberal university, but it does make a bit of sense. All the different genders though has taken this way too far. If you don't want to do what's expected of a man, that's fine. Same for a woman. But this movement has gotten out of control.
Thing is you’ve basically described personality and feelings. Doesn’t mean that gender is a thing different from sexuality. It especially doesn’t mean that there are more than two genders.
I don't like the concept of multiple genders. But gender as a whole is something different that our sex determined biologically. I have a biochemistry degree and the word sex is explicitly used as a descriptive term for being male or female. Not gender.
They are feelings and personality, but also general behaviors.
I want it known though that I'm not trying to be rude towards frens, but we can't live in ignorance and try to say one word means the same as another when it doesn't.
People will naturally follow the behavioral traits (‘gender role’) of their ‘sex’. This is the natural order of things. You can argue semantics about sex and gender, and sure the words don’t describe the same thing, but genders correlate with their sex, no matter how a person ‘feels’ about it. Every sex has a purpose that is to be fulfilled, the body isn’t designed to understand sex changes and other modern surgeries, which is why it causes so many health issues.
Do you have any links or anything to further expand on this. I'd actually like to understand it better. I'm get a Ng Downvoted to hell for just talking.
It's harder to accept when you were wrong all along fren. Cognitive dissonance is a hell of a psychological fallacy. But if you read further into this thread you'll see I can handle that with grace.
A right wing sub with few political posts or agenda. Im not the one who brought this up. Lets just keep anti-science propaganda out of this sub and all frens can get along
Dude, what do you think science is? Science is entirely comprised of opinions and guesses. Guesses that have been proved over time, but are constantly subject to change. Back in ye olde days, science told us that sun orbited the Earth. Somebody had the “opinion” or idea, that no, that was wrong, they did their research and they changed science. Of course, there were morons in their day and age too who believed that any opinion that didn’t match up with their definition of science wasn’t valid. Don’t be the modern equivalent of them, history won’t smile on you for it.
Science is constantly changing, sometimes it’s right, sometimes it’s wrong. Advancements in science are built off of opinions, and idiots who try to suppress the opinions of others do nothing but make themselves look stupid and stop the progress of science toward reaching the Truth.
So be careful what you say, fren, and please don’t be an nonfren and try to repress the freedom of speech of others.
Repressing others? Oh thats rich.
Lol. Wow you are dense:
Let’s look at the definition of opinion:
Opinion- “A view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge.”
Science is the process of gaining knowledge through hypothesizing, observation, experiment, or otherwise gaining evidence that will either cause a hypothesis to be thrown out or become more supported. it is, in fact, the exact opposite of an opinion.
Science is based on knowledge and investigation.
Its an extremely weak argument to suggest science is ‘just' one more opinion at the end of the day. So no.
Science fren here! Gender stuff is simple biology but who says someone can't get surgery to become happy? Sure there's some mental issues but hey, whatever floats their boat.
Unless you force it on children and forcefully normalize it, then there's a problem.
If anybody tries to discredit this tranny shit their careers will be ruined by the leftist mob. Real scientific. Same thing goes for talking about race; you either toe the "we're all equal" line or lose your career.
He should list his sources so that you can immediately reply and claim the source is propaganda? Maybe this fren has realized that there is no use arguing with a brick wall, such as yourself.
Why would nature evolve two sexes and 37 genders, fren? How would that help the survival of a species? Are there any transgender animals? Do silverback gorillas chew off their cocks and try to have babies?
fella I think it’s totally fine men can fuck men women can fuck women and women can fuck men and women can fuck men and we can all fuck but yeen gotta overthink gender anyone can be a bad bitch so in this case I’m the dude and will say. I abide.
Worked just fine in the 50s. Progress for the sake of progress is usually bad, especially when it goes against our scientific understanding of the world.
I dunno, maybe by helping them come to terms with the gender they are rather than encourage them to mutilate themselves in a hopeless pursuit of becoming something they’re not and never will be?
People with gender dysphoria have a very high rate of suicide, it’s terrible. But for some reason, our society thinks that by egging on their dysphoria and confusing then further, it will help. Spoiler, it doesn’t. Suicide rates for people with gender dysphoria does not drop after ”transition,” typically the process of forcing themselves to become something they’re not makes their condition worse.
Encouraging someone’s gender dysphoria would be like telling someone diagnosed with anxiety that, instead of getting the proper help and medication they need, they should just give in to their condition and hide in a secluded room for the rest of their life. Obviously, that would not help the poor bloke with anxiety, and encouraging people with gender dysphoria to give in to their condition doesn’t help either.
Society should be helping these people come to terms with who they actually are, not leading them on some deluded quest of mental dysphoria.
Hehe. Think you can handle providing a more unbiased source?
Founded in 1973, The Heritage Foundation is a right-wing think tank. Its stated mission is to formulate and promote public policies based on the principles of "free enterprise, limited government, individual freedom, traditional American values, and a strong national defense."
Christ, what a bunch of nitwits... Not sure why I even bother with this
As opposed to the left wing think tank that Peter Boghossian and James Lindsay uncovered that is being awfully suppressed by the media for some reason.
As opposed to actual scientists and professionals in their field who all say that gender reassignment works. Maybe try actually reading around on the subject if you genuinely care (of course you don't), rather than picking one source that agrees with your bigotry (written by other bigots) and going "Duuhhh yep! This proves I'm right!" Knuckle-dragger.
Why come here and preach about how much you hate people who are different to you? Go ahead and be a dick but using embarrassing baby talk to try to oh-so-subtly persuade other people to come down to your level is absolutely pathetic. The world is laughing at you as your beliefs become more and more fringe and derided.
Non-frens = non-bigot, right? In which case I'm happy to be easy to spot.
Nice retort btw: "There are worse things in the world than me being a bigoted arsehole so by criticising me, you're the real arsehole..." Real top-tier thinking there numb-nuts.
This is why no one listens to you, except when they want a good chuckle.
To be honest mate I just love how quickly this whole "frenly" mask slips. It's like when my toddler is playing make-believe but then forgets what she's playing and gets all flustered. Adorable really.
If you need to believe that in order to feel relevant then by all means go ahead. It must be lonely being so hate filled. I'm here if you want to open up about it babe.
Lol. This source is the biggest piece of biased propaganda Ive ever read. Im not sure if youre stupid enough to actually buy this or Im talking with a russian troll here rn.
Why does it matter what they compare it to 😂Still doesn’t change the fact that trans people are killing themselves at alarming rates (dissatisfied with post op- sad reality they will never be the opposite gender).
The trans people who display regret towards their surgery are ultimately shunned by trans communities. Its sickening. Theres even subreddits about it.
Genuinely laughable that you act like you care. If you actually cared maybe you'd read the absolute fuck-ton of evidence written by professionals in their field that says that gender reassignment works. Or read the testimonies of people going through this who all say that the biggest issue they face is dealing with reactionary morons like you, claiming to care by pushing this whole "just force them to be 'normal', that'll help!" bullshit.
I know you're full of shit because the high suicide rate does fall to normal levels after transitioning. You'd know that if you care as much as you'd like people to believe.
Telling trans people to just "be normal" is like telling someone with spina bifida to just suck it up and walk like a "normal" human being, rather than using all the scientific research and understanding we have to find the most pragmatic and workable treatments and assistance. Why do you think you know better than medical professionals when it comes to treating complicated conditions like this? Or do you think there's some huge conspiracy to push something they know to be bad for patients just to piss off reactionaries like you?
Lot of unfenlyness in this comment section.... weird!
I’m sure that’s part of it, but people blame discrimination for a lot of things, when in reality, it’s really not that prevalent. Aside from a few extremists here and there, and occasionally some little kids who are too young to have grasped social manners, no one is going to actively bully trans people, the majority of people in this world, despite what the news (and Reddit) tells you, are actually very polite people.
No, while the few and far between cases of real discrimination may account for some of the problem, in reality, it’s the aggravating of a mental illness that drives these poor people to suicide. Rather than help them get the proper treatment, society tells them that they should give in the unfortunate malfunction in their head and let it control them and their life.
I speak bluntly about mental illnesses because I suffer heavily from anxiety, the real kind, diagnosed by a doctor, not the tumblr self diagnosed fraud kind. Anyway, once I found out that I suffered from this condition, I went to work fixing it. I didn’t give in to my illness and lock myself out from the world, because that would make things worse. When society encourages people to become something they’re not, they’re doing exactly that which they should not do, giving in to the illness.
While I agree that this sub is just a (very) thinly veiled attempt at pushing reactionary bullshit, calling these sorts of views "political" is generous in the extreme! The idea that the best treatment for trans people is carefully managed transitioning isn't a "political opinion" it's just scientific fact backed by the vast majority of professionals in the field. Framing it as a political opinion is like this whole climate change debate... it's science versus idiots who'd rather deny science because it's inconvenient for their world view/bottom line.
And even if allowing people to transition isn't necessarily the best treatment, how is it anyone else's business? The people pushing this nonsense are the same ones who claim to believe in small government and that no one should be allowed to interfere with people's private business (which is a legitimate political opinion). Until that involves doing something they find "icky"... then we all need to stick our fucking noses in and tell them what we think. Hmmm.
Right on cue: "They're free to do whatever they want but don't expect me to play along...."
How exactly does it affect you in any way whatsoever? You have to go more out of your way to be a dick to trans people than just to ignore it. So ignore it and go on with your life. Simple!
Going on the internet and making posts about how you disagree with their lifestyle isn't exactly "keeping it to yourself" is it? The hypocrisy of people who claim they hate LGBT issues being shoved down their throat then going out of their way to argue against them is astounding! Seriously, if you don't like it ignore it. I guarantee there are aspects of your life that people don't agree with but they let you get on with it because it's not their fucking business.
how do you not see that everyone’s life impacts society, you’re not an individual with no connection to anyone else, we are all intertwined by our values, beliefs and the choices we make.
The fact that you want to encourage mentally ill people to get permanent surgery will not impact me directly but it will impact the rest of society indirectly, by normalizing that kind of destructive behavior.
And the biggest problem is the way normalizing degeneracy will affect the most impressionable and naive among us, baby frens.
I've never encouraged anyone to get surgery, it's none of my damn business. I'm happy to leave it up to the individual and medical professionals to decide what's best. But her you are encouraging people to ignore medical evidence because you think the treatment is "degeneracy"... How is that helping society, genius? You think you can just wish away things like gender dysphoria because it makes you feel icky... Sorry bud, not going to happen. So why not let these people decide what is best for them and stay the hell out of it. If you really do care about society as a whole, as opposed to clutching your pearls and screaming "think of the children!!"
Cool, just let the obviously mentally unstable person decide what they want to do, im guessing you don’t disagree with their choice to commit suicide either, just let them do whatever they think is best, would you let an anorexic person not eat because they decided not to?
It’s helping by not normalizing it, these people need help not your pity.
I can’t wish it away, but therapy can fix it, what doesn’t fix it is letting the problem spread by calling it normal.
I’m presenting a possibility for them to cure their mental illness and then become a functional portion of society, by having jobs, children and responsibility,
and you’re presenting letting them do whatever they want, which is in most cases either ends with suicide or not having children due to the permanent surgery.
The way you express yourself is cringing me to shit. Nonfren.
fren, it sorta seems like this whole trans movement is more than just acting feminine if you feel feminine (I think people have always done that). It sorta seems like the stuff that’s new is precisely the demands on society and people around them.
Jordan Peterson is a charlatan, a hack and a shill - he was completely lying about that whole C-16 thing or whatever it was. Look in to it. r/enoughpetersonspam
You're really going to compare having to tolerate trans people with displaying pornography in public...? I mean you know that's insane, right? If not I don't even know where to start.
I don’t understand why you’re getting mad, fren. I just said you should be a decent human being and celebrate trans people. How does it affect you to celebrate them?
I think off-roading has damaged a few of my former frens. I don't know if I should pity them or just hope that they don't feel too much pain when they eventually sleep. :/
Suicide rates are far higher among trans people before they transition than after. If you genuinely care about your friend the best thing you can do is try to accept them whatever they decide to do or be. How does it hurt you to let them do whatever they feel like they need to do?
That is tragic and I truly hope that person gets the help they need but it tells us nothing about the overall benefit of transitioning. And it certainly doesn't suggest that being supportive of your friends who are going through this is in any way the wrong thing to do.
Not sure what you mean by success. Chemoterapy is a try to fix something. It's awesome if it works but if not, nothing got worse. So in any case it can just improve someone's life. But your case it's mostly just destroying lives of people
Reducing/eliminating gender dysphoria, improving general mental health, and lowering suicide attempt rates.
It's awesome if it works but if not, nothing got worse.
Sure, but it typically does work, that's the point. All evidence found supports this. We will gain accuracy/precision in diagnosis the more research we do on trans people.
But your case it's mostly just destroying lives of people
Can you provide any studies showing trans people are worse off after transitioning than they were before?
Where's the comparison with pre-transition people? This is saying their lifetime rates of suicide attempts is significantly higher than the general average. I don't deny that. The important piece is when are those attempts taking place, before transitioning or after?
This study isn't evaluating the effectiveness of transition in relation to suicide attempts.
That's my point. People suffering from gender dysphoria are going to have mental health issues and will be more likely to attempt suicide than those who don't.
That isn't disputed.
Transitioning has shown in the vast majority of cases to improve mental health and reduce suicidal tendencies in gender dysphoric individuals. Repeating that they're suicide risks isn't disproving that, unless your data shows transitioning increases the risk.
Here's a cross study of 50+ studies on the effects of transitioning on the well-being of trans people:
This is more an argument regarding diagnosis accuracy than treatment effectiveness. Whether or not we can accurately determine if someone is trans is irrelevant to how we help the ones who truly are.
It's a perfectly reasonable concern. Especially since it's heavily portrayed in media as "they like girl toys/clothes so they're a girl".
There's a process for evaluating children and it's pretty effective.
The vast majority of children who are evaluated by gender clinics for gender ddysphoric symptoms are found to not meet the criteria for it and do not transition. Roughly 70-85% depending on the study. It's important that we don't have false positives, which is why socially transitioning is very helpful.
For the children who show consistent and persistent gender dysphoria through years of evaluation, they could be given puberty blockers and hormone replacement therapy to avoid exacerbating their gender dysphoria by experiencing puberty. Of these children, less than 1% are found to regret the medical intervention.
I mentioned this in my other reply, but the vast majority of people who transitioned as children are not the detransitioners. That's more often than not adults who didn't have the same lengthy evaluation, (which is one possible failure point), and also might detransition because they aren't happy with the results. Transitioning as an adult is less likely to be as effective, as they've already undergone puberty, which typically makes their gender dysphoria worse.
I personally know a trans person who detransitioned because of family pressure, as they're very conservative. They still maintained they were trans and a girl, but they didn't feel their family would ever accept them.
This is hardly an objective argument, but I'd also point out that sub has roughly 2,700 subs whereas subs like r/traaaaaaannnnnnnnnns has over 100,000. Again, that's hardly a controlled experiment lol, but the existence of people who were incorrectly diagnosed or who detransitioned for other reasons are a very small percentage as it is.
Yes, the patterns of behavior are similarly destructive. If one keeps searching for higher degrees of dopamine stimulation through either substance abuse or deviant behavior, this pattern will generally lead to a path of self destruction.
"Deviant behaviour".... that's completely subjective. What if I decide you're a deviant? Can I start poking my nose in your business and shaming you?
Dress it up however you want, it's just plain old fashioned bigotry. You don't agree with someone's lifestyle so you think it's your place to judge them for trying to find ways to cope.
Let's say you did have a friend with a heroin addiction - what do you think is more helpful; telling them how deviant and shameful their addiction is, or supporting whatever treatment they think will help them come off it? You're far more interested in trying to get people to live the life you think they should than actually supporting someone through a difficult situation.
The 23rd pair of chromosomes define if male or female... That's kinda it. There are special cases with double x in men or women but those are so rare that they're defined as disorders.
You can act like the other sex if it makes you feel better. And maybe if people acted like you really are you won't think how you can naturally never be that. But you still can't make people act against their will just because you are insecure about it. As much as you think you know how it is, everyone else does too. Its ok to have different opinions but its not ok to force your opinon on someone.
Honestly... In this age and time... We really gotta be clear with each other what we want and what we're saying. After seeing everything you expect anything from people nowdays.
Sorry for missinterpreting your comment. I hope mine still makes sense for you.
Frens, it's not political, it's scientific! When a person is gestating in the womb, certain parts of the DNA develop before the chromosomes choose XY or XX. Because of this, some things are the useless on men/women. Nipples on men being the most known example.
1) being intersex is statistically more likely than having red-hairs and 2% of the population is not that rare since it's very likely that you will encounter someone intersex in your life
2) it's not a disorder, a disorder can be cured and prevents you from having a normal life, being intersex is a genetic syndrome, that means it cannot be "cured" and that even if we had the chance to cure it a person could still live a normal life without "curing" it
3) all of the above doesn't change that the "meme" is just factually incorrect
Well the problem is that you are conflating the term normal with likely/non rare: only because something is rare that doesn't make it not normal, having red hair, for example, is rare but you would never call someone with red hair not normal, even though having red hair is a genetic mutation ( you could say "something is off"). In the same way being intersex does not make you not normal, unless it prevents you from having a normal life (Which it often doesn't), so saying "you're either male or female" it's as wrong as saying "there are four hair colors (black, brown, blonde and grey)", both are at least incorrect because they do not take in account a part of the population, even if small.
Since when does significant mean you are likely to meet one in your lifetime? You are probably gonna meet almost every ttoe of person in your lifetime. And it's still a large abnormality, in normal circumstances this doesnt happen. Assuming the meme is ment to be a normal circumstance, it doesnt happen.
Also this is just a meme ment to mock transgenders, I dont see why it would involve intersex people
1) well 2% is a very significant part of the population nonetheless, the likely hood of how meeting an intersex person was just an example to make understand how it's actually a pretty large amount of people, and 2% mean that you have a pretty high chance of encountering an intersex person daily (if you see 25 different people every day you will see about 15 intersex people per month, and more than 180 every year), not one in your lifetime.
2) abnormality is more a social than a scientific term, just because something is unlikely doesn't make it abnormal, you would never say "owning a turtle as a pet makes you abnormal" despite the % of the population owning it, usually people define someone as normal if the life they live is "standard" in the place they live in, and plenty of intersex people are able to live a standard life. Another way that people use the word normal is good/bad, for example you would not say that going to jail is normal despite the % of the population that goes to jail during their life time, and being intersex is not inherently worse/better than being male/female.
3) this is a meme made to mock transgenders, but it specifically says that DNA is either male or female, which is just untrue
abnormality is a social thing and that just because something isny common doesnt make it not objectively normal
???? what? It is a litteral abnormality, as in humans were specifically made to be either Male or Female, and that Intersex isnt exactly supposed to be either.
When did I mention anything about intersex people living worse lives or being worse than normal people? All I'm saying is that it makes sense that he wouldnt include intersex people, as this is a meme made to mock transgenders, where its saying you are born Male or female (because under objectively NORMAL circumstances where the person being born does not have a physically abnormal condition) and implying that you cannot choose later in life.
"humans were specifically made to be either male or female" no one "made" humans, humans are just derived by a genetic mutation (you might call it an abnormality) from the previous species, so saying "humans are supposed to be this or that" is just an expectation that we have and if someone doesn't fullfil that expectation that does not necessarily make it abnormal (depending on how you define it)
Plus abnormality can literally mean 7 different things
"Abnormality has been defined in a number of ways, including: unusual behaviour that is different from the norm; behaviour that doesnot conform to social expectations or demands; statistical infrequency; failure to function adequately; presence of pronounced psychological suffering or distress; deviation from ideal..."
and outside the scientific field is generally used as a way of saying "failure to function adequately" or "behavior that doesn't conform to social expectations or demands" so when I talked about intersex people having a "normal" life that was what I was referring to.
I can tell that probably you are referring to "statistical infrequency" but it being unlikely doesn't make it not real, so saying "you are either male or female" it's just incorrect, you could say "you are usually(or normally) either male or female" and not be incorrect but that just wasn't what the meme was saying.
I'm not talking about statistical infrequently, altough I will admit that plays a part of it. I am saying it is abnormal as in that isnt supposed to happen, on a biological level.
God you sound so much like you are trying to be smart, turning what could have been a few sentences into an entire lecture, and overanalyzing a fucking meme on r/frenworld about how transgenderism is unnatural by criticizing it for not including you're rare condition
What do you mean is supposed to happen? Nothing is supposed to happen in nature you realize that right? Things just happen, some things happen more frequently than others so we expect it to happen again in the same way, but that's just not how nature works. Plus I've never overanalyzed the meme, the meme just said "there's either A or B" and I said "well, there is also C" and sorry if I'm being too long it's just that English isn't my primary language and I'm trying to explain myself best as I can
Not really, as some stuff are ment to be certian ways. The entire reason men and women exist on a biological level is for reproduction, and someone who has both is very obviously a sort of physical "deformity" I guess you could say, I cant really think if the correct word. Their DNA, or chromosomes or whatever is just messed up.
I get what you are trying to say, that there is a C, but the C isnt exactly supposed to happen, and the meme gas nothing to do with it, other than implying there is inkt an A and B
But it is, fren. These people are lost, trapped within their own minds. Just below the surface of conscious thought, they see that their existence is hollow.
Unable to silence their internal cries of inadequacy, they seek to shield themselves from them by becoming what society pities. To protect themselves from the harshness of normal life by becoming a perpetual dependent of others. A protected class.
But they will never be satisfied with what they find. Cursed to forever wander a barren path, they will seek their false god until it claims them. Forever lost.
It's a perfectly reasonable concern. Especially since it's heavily portrayed in media as "they like girl toys/clothes so they're a girl".
There's a process for evaluating children and it's pretty effective.
The vast majority of children who are evaluated by gender clinics for gender ddysphoric symptoms are found to not meet the criteria for it and do not transition. Roughly 70-85% depending on the study. It's important that we don't have false positives, which is why socially transitioning is very helpful.
For the children who show consistent and persistent gender dysphoria through years of evaluation, they could be given puberty blockers and hormone replacement therapy to avoid exacerbating their gender dysphoria by experiencing puberty. Of these children, less than 1% are found to regret the medical intervention.
I have to strongly disagree with you there fren. Firstly it costs almost nothing for you mental to accommodate these situations. How much mental energy does it take for you to call someone by a different name? Do you not have any frens with nicknames? And this small point of debate actually has widely reaching utilitarian prospects.
Gender is a social construct built around social and cultural norms. It is fundamentally different to sex. It's pretty easy to show that there is a difference, since all that you need to do is show that the same person in two different societies is the same sex but is seen as having a different/abnormal gender. Take a woman with short hair and wearing pants and a button down shirt and show them to someone from a few hundred years ago and they assume she is a man. Take a baby swaddled in pink and show them to someone from today and someone from a hundred years ago, and they'll both assume different genders. But the person's sex has stayed the same the entire time. Therefore, it can be seen that gender and sex are indeed separate. That sex is determined by biological factors, while gender is determined by social and cultural factors.
Once you accept this truth fren, things start to change. It's not a difficult task to call someone the right pronouns or the right name, because that is how they express and hence what their actual gender is. You don't have to bend over backwards to reach that point, rather, it is just how things are. And this has wide-reaching implications on improving things for everyfren as well. Gender is a social construct, so why does child custody default to favouring women? Why are we ok with men dying in the front lines but not women? Why are men assumed to be better workers than women? Why is it that being a stay at home mum is more respectable than being a stay at home dad?
Suddenly, you realise there's a lot of issues that can be fixed here. Accepting trans frens is simply the smallest and easiest step. They make it clear for you what gender they express as, they correct you if you're wrong (usually politely), and as you said yourself fren, they are a minority so you're unlikely to encounter the issue very much. But understand that being frenly is always the best option, and that this is a small microcosm that reflect a larger reality that your utilitarian ideology can surely understand the impact of. Noone is asking for social treatment or extra rights fren, they're only asking you to treat them exactly as you'd treat anyone else: By calling them by their name and referring to them as the right gender.
320 comments
3 SONNEN_RADICAL 2019-06-12
Sometimes it goes forward, hits the pole and ends up with mental issues
2 DIARRHEAGARGLER6969 2019-06-12
Yeah, like some frens end up with both, but usually don't live very long. However, non frens like to use this as proof that you can be that normally.
1 TheCultureOfCritique 2019-06-12
Imagine believing that a car crash is a normal, healthy way to drive.
1 cosle 2019-06-12
I knew a transgender girl in school. (UK) she wasn’t right. She was clearly in need of help, about her identity about her being. She was not well. They aren’t normal they’re the lowest of society the transgendered. And I don’t mean that in a hateful way.i mean in the same vein as the retarded, the homeless and the mentally ill. They need slow and gradual support not someone saying be brave, roar or haphazardly given the option to give in to their psychosis after a short discussion. It’s doesn’t work like that. How awful that as a species we take the lowest of society and we thrust them into the spotlight for our own entertainment, or we parade the things we do for them as clout to show off to the rest of the normal people. We can’t seem to just humbly take care of them.
Anyway that girl transitioned. I wish the best for her and I hope her torments finally over. But I really doubt that to be true.
0 TheDuderinoAbides 2019-06-12
So many frens here with a mindset that belongs in the 50s. Maybe humans, sexuality and gender is a bit more complicated than what we first imagined? Whats wrong with that?
2 TheCultureOfCritique 2019-06-12
It's the Current Year.
1 b_utterscotch 2019-06-12
Yes, it is the current year. All frens should have a more accepting and progressive mindset to compliment the fact that we don’t live in a very discriminatory and oppressive society that is hateful towards minorities such as trans-frens.
1 TheCultureOfCritique 2019-06-12
You sound Islamophobic.
1 b_utterscotch 2019-06-12
I do not have a problem with all followers of Islam, but I do have a problem with the religion itself which seems to encourage discrimination against certain minorities. As with all religious text, though, the Qur’an is up to interpretation.
0 TheDuderinoAbides 2019-06-12
Meaning?
1 unorthodoxcowboy 2019-06-12
🤡🌎
1 Solid-Snek 2019-06-12
Dude how have u not realized where this Sub’s beliefs fall
1 clubpenguinporno 2019-06-12
delete
1 Solid-Snek 2019-06-12
I didn’t specify where. He just seems a little lost
1 TheDuderinoAbides 2019-06-12
Hehe. Im definitely not the one whos lost here
1 TheDuderinoAbides 2019-06-12
I know. Im all about the fren support I see here most of the time. But I find it ironic how incredibly toxic, narrowminded and judgmental it is at the same time. Im getting tired of it tbh.
1 clubpenguinporno 2019-06-12
then leave the sub. it's not changing anytime soon. sorry you don't agree :/
1 TheDuderinoAbides 2019-06-12
And Im sorry you are stuck in your narrowminded ways :/
1 TheCultureOfCritique 2019-06-12
TIL from Unfrens: if you don't stick things in your butt you're narrow minded.
0 TheDuderinoAbides 2019-06-12
Yes. Thats exactly what I meant. You are very smart !
1 BigTiddyThomas 2019-06-12
Dude you’re in a sub about a frog doing dumb shit and eating tendies, it’s obviously satire
1 TheDuderinoAbides 2019-06-12
I was hoping that. But I dont think it all is unfortunately :(
1 Gumballguy34 2019-06-12
Well you're wrong!
1 DIARRHEAGARGLER6969 2019-06-12
Facts = narrow minded?
1 TheDuderinoAbides 2019-06-12
Oh. Which facts are that?
1 DIARRHEAGARGLER6969 2019-06-12
There are only two genders.
1 TheDuderinoAbides 2019-06-12
I dont know
1 HKoftheForrest 2019-06-12
You want everybody to agree with you and make a fuss when they dont.
thats not very frenly behavior.
1 TheDuderinoAbides 2019-06-12
Just trying to educate people. But some peoples biggest fear is knowledge and changing their views. I see a lot of non frenly behaviour here too. Completely agree there
1 HKoftheForrest 2019-06-12
You are so narcissistic and preachy ahaha. Keep up the good work nonfren.
1 TheDuderinoAbides 2019-06-12
Will do!. Good job resorting to petty insults when you are out of arguments nonfren
1 HKoftheForrest 2019-06-12
Its not an insult its an accurate description of the behavior you have presented which I can safely assume is your m.o. thus taking offense to it means you know its wrong but you behave like this anyways.
Good luck nonfren
1 TheDuderinoAbides 2019-06-12
Where have I taken offense to anything? Even though I recognize a pathetic attempt at an insult when someone has nothing else left to support their argument does not mean I have taken offense. I have been called much worse by better than you.
Best of luck to you nonfren
1 1Kenny30 2019-06-12
Sorry u can't learn how to be ok with people disagreeing with u. It must be hard to make frens being so intolerant of other people's stupidity. Not everyone is smart or agrees with u, and that's ok. Being frens is about looking past other people's flaws, i'm still your fren! :)
1 TheDuderinoAbides 2019-06-12
Your post history, as well as yourself, is absolutely cringe and pathetic. That was an insult btw
1 clubpenguinporno 2019-06-12
you're a dumbass.
1 clubpenguinporno 2019-06-12
u/foxdieeee please remove this non fren
1 cosle 2019-06-12
I never knew “educate” was a synonym for brainwash
1 Duplenty91 2019-06-12
Frens don't let frens cut their Willies off
1 TheDuderinoAbides 2019-06-12
Frens dont tell other frens what they can and cant do with their body
1 TheCultureOfCritique 2019-06-12
Muh body muh choice
1 Paladin_of_Prismo 2019-06-12
Not if what they want to do to themselves is obviously stupid and harmful in nature. Sometimes frens are confused. They need support from their frens and a hug, not a knife to chopchop the willie.
1 carrols827 2019-06-12
Would I be a good fren if I allowed self harm due to mental illness? Are you sure that’s the kind of frenship you want? Sound like a non fren circle jerk to me
1 theyreallinonit2 2019-06-12
What happens when a fren starts slashing their wrists in the bathtub, can we tell them what to do then?
1 theyreallinonit2 2019-06-12
no secret messages, only nonfrens do secret messages.
from TheDuderinoAbides sent 2 minutes ago
I know cognitive dissonance is hard and you probably wont realize this: But how does it feel knowing you are contributing to people commiting suicide and making the world a shittier place? Do you even consider it?
Nonfrens answer questions with a question.
So again I ask
What happens when a fren starts slashing their wrists in the bathtub, can we tell them what to do then?
1 [deleted] 2019-06-12
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1 [deleted] 2019-06-12
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1 SirTalkALot406 2019-06-12
Cutting off your genitals is bad for your physical and psychological health fren.
Accepting the way you are is the first step to frenhood, we accept you that way too, fren.
1 theyreallinonit2 2019-06-12
Afren brother
1 DankLinks 2019-06-12
Yikes I thought it was supposed to be frenly to all frens :(
1 amWILLdaBeast 2019-06-12
Sexuality can be complicated fren, but not gender. You either have xy genitalia or xx genitalia. Or, if you're unfortunate, you could be born with a mutation that leaves you somewhere in between. Such a mutation is considerably rare though. Not very complicated. Gender-dysphoria is a thing, but it doesn't explain the 80 or so made up genders that nonfrens want every political and professional institution to include in censuses and such.
1 B0n3 2019-06-12
Well said, fren.
1 DyslexicBrad 2019-06-12
Genes determine sex not gender. The two are different things.
1 amWILLdaBeast 2019-06-12
Sex, in that context, and gender are the same thing. But I'll humor you and ask how define gender fren.
1 DyslexicBrad 2019-06-12
Gender is the social and cultural differences between man and woman, while sex is the biological differences. It's been this way for decades now and isn't anything new.
1 amWILLdaBeast 2019-06-12
New enough that they didn't teach that when I was in school almost five years ago. Makes sense fren. Thank you for taking the time explain that frenly and concisely. Still doesn't explain the 80+ made up genders though.
1 DyslexicBrad 2019-06-12
Thanks for listening fren. I'm always happy to explain. I'll explain that for you if you'd like too, although I might get some things wrong since I'm a scientist and not a sociologist.
Getting from gender as a social construct to the idea of multiple genders requires a little explaining. Going from gender is the social and cultural differences between man and woman, we can then therefore conclude that someone can choose to express more masculine or more feminine. If you were to, say, write down every single masculine trait and every single feminine trait, you could then choose which ones to express. At this point, you could classify people by how masculine or feminine they are rather than by if they present majority masculine or majority feminine. Once you get here, you realise that gender is a spectrum of levels of masculine or feminine expression, rather than a binary man or woman.
That probably sounds like a big jump to make? But society at large already does this (albeit to a lesser extent) with terms such as calling a masculine woman a tomboy or a more feminine man a twink.
Some people take the next step and decide to classify the spectrum from "most masculine" to "most feminine" into a variety of different genders. Think similarly to every colour is simply somewhere on the spectrum between red, green, and blue, but rather than calling a colour 255r,255g,0b, we give it a label: yellow. Rather than calling someone a woman who presents with a lot of masculine traits, we give them the label tomboy.
Hope that helps explain the idea behind it fren.
1 JeremyThreepwood 2019-06-12
That's all cool, bro. Makes sense. Now this stuff became very political, lately, and people over exaggerate it to a point where the subject becomes repulsive. Also add all the mentally ill representatives the subject managed to assemble. Not cool. On top of that, there's no gain in this. The ratio of "advancing the human race"/"attention on it" is just wrong.
1 minitntman1 2019-06-12
Isn't that what people used to call gender roles?
1 DyslexicBrad 2019-06-12
Gender oles is when you do the opposite, take someone's gender and assign them traits they must like. Like say someone identifies as "yellow", gender roles would be saying oh they must be 255, 255, 0 when in actuality there a whole wide range of yellows
1 derpyderpopoulos 2019-06-12
to all frens: the sex/gender dichotomy is a natural fact, not a modern invention. It’s something we discovered about reality, not something that was memed into reality by academics with a social agenda. The way we know it is a part of human nature is because it goes back hundreds of thousands of ye-
hmm, really? decades? That’s kind of curious frens, now I’m all confused :(
1 DyslexicBrad 2019-06-12
Sex is for sure, but gender isn't.
Definitions change all the time, it needn't be so confusing fren. Think about the earth being flat which was believed for hundreds of thousands of years but we now know that to not be true. Or that the earth was the center of the universe, or that the sun was a God. Just because something changes doesn't mean that it's wrong.
And that's only the English definitions of the word. Historically, there are references to people of a third gender dating back to the birthplace of civilisation in ancient Mesopotamia thousands of years BCE.
And the definition has changed but only to reflect the usage of the word. Historically it's been the same all along. Joan of Arc was a woman and when expressing as a man was referred to as a man. Do you think that ancient civilisations defined gender by people's genes? Did Kings require knights to be publically pantsed to prove that they had a penis before they could be knighted? No, because that wasn't how someone's gender is discerned.
1 derpyderpopoulos 2019-06-12
There have always been feminine and masculine, fren. It is not until very recently that people said, hey, actually if you are a very feminine boy then you should give yourself a bloody front hole and after that everyone has to cal you a girls name and say “yes, that is a girl” or they get in trouble :(
1 DyslexicBrad 2019-06-12
I agree with you that we should look to reduce surgeries when they are unnecessary fren. That is exactly why it's so important that we separate the terms sex and gender. That way, people with Gender Dysphoria don't feel the need to change their sex to feel like the gender they present as. Going by the definition of gender is expression, someone suffering from GD doesn't need to undergo sex reassignment surgery because by changing their expression they can change their gender. This way, a person suffering from GD only needs to change what they do to relieve their stress from GD, while if you define gender as the same as sex, they may need to have unalterable and potentially life-threatening surgery for the same relief.
If your goal is to improve peoples' lives fren, then accepting that gender and sex are different is the way to go about it. To do otherwise would be extremely unfrenly.
1 derpyderpopoulos 2019-06-12
fren, I think you and I agree it is good to be frenly, and we even agree that it’s frenly to improve people’s lives. Where I think we disagree is that I’m not so interested in expensing mental energy on improving the lives of a tiny minority of mentally deranged people; I want to see the most improvement for the most people. It’s utilitarian frenliness, and imo it was common sense until, basically, the cultural revolution of the 1960s. Since then, the large majority always have to change, to adjust, to bend over backwards for the tiny minority. Everyone is forced to be exposed to stuff that makes them uncomfortable just so a handful of mentally deranged people can be comfortable. That’s the new ethos of what it is to be frenly and I just fundamentally disagree with it.
1 DyslexicBrad 2019-06-12
I have to strongly disagree with you there fren. Firstly it costs almost nothing for you mental to accommodate these situations. How much mental energy does it take for you to call someone by a different name? Do you not have any frens with nicknames? And this small point of debate actually has widely reaching utilitarian prospects.
Gender is a social construct built around social and cultural norms. It is fundamentally different to sex. It's pretty easy to show that there is a difference, since all that you need to do is show that the same person in two different societies is the same sex but is seen as having a different/abnormal gender. Take a woman with short hair and wearing pants and a button down shirt and show them to someone from a few hundred years ago and they assume she is a man. Take a baby swaddled in pink and show them to someone from today and someone from a hundred years ago, and they'll both assume different genders. But the person's sex has stayed the same the entire time. Therefore, it can be seen that gender and sex are indeed separate. That sex is determined by biological factors, while gender is determined by social and cultural factors.
Once you accept this truth fren, things start to change. It's not a difficult task to call someone the right pronouns or the right name, because that is how they express and hence what their actual gender is. You don't have to bend over backwards to reach that point, rather, it is just how things are. And this has wide-reaching implications on improving things for everyfren as well. Gender is a social construct, so why does child custody default to favouring women? Why are we ok with men dying in the front lines but not women? Why are men assumed to be better workers than women? Why is it that being a stay at home mum is more respectable than being a stay at home dad?
Suddenly, you realise there's a lot of issues that can be fixed here. Accepting trans frens is simply the smallest and easiest step. They make it clear for you what gender they express as, they correct you if you're wrong (usually politely), and as you said yourself fren, they are a minority so you're unlikely to encounter the issue very much. But understand that being frenly is always the best option, and that this is a small microcosm that reflect a larger reality that your utilitarian ideology can surely understand the impact of. Noone is asking for social treatment or extra rights fren, they're only asking you to treat them exactly as you'd treat anyone else: By calling them by their name and referring to them as the right gender.
1 ARandomNiceGuy95 2019-06-12
Fren, he's actually not wrong.
1 TheDuderinoAbides 2019-06-12
Im not talking about sexuality or the 80 made up genders. Im talking about how people identity and view themselves as a gender.
Biological factors are not always sufficient determinants of whether a person considers themselves a man or is considered a man. Intersex individuals, who have physical or genetic features considered to be mixed or atypical for one sex or the other, may use other criteria in making a clear determination. There are also transgender and transsexual men, who were assigned as female at birth, but identify as men; there are varying social, legal and individual definitions with regard to these issues. (See trans man.)
1 amWILLdaBeast 2019-06-12
Whether or not someone considers themselves their biological gender should be no concern to official documentation. Either xy or xx or intersex.
1 TheDuderinoAbides 2019-06-12
Ahh yes. Its all so simple! Of course!
1 amWILLdaBeast 2019-06-12
Maybe if you were more frenly and less condescending like someone else in this thread you could have gotten your point across better.
1 TheDuderinoAbides 2019-06-12
Sometimes you have to break out the hard talk and tough love. Sorry fren :(
1 amWILLdaBeast 2019-06-12
It's ok fren :)
1 PassionFruitSmoothie 2019-06-12
topmind
1 LabanTheVile 2019-06-12
Well, you're kinda dumb, and live in fantasy land fren. Sorry to tell you, but tough love and all.
1 Its_All_Taken 2019-06-12
I'm sorry fren, but you're not special, and lying about your gender won't make you special.
1 TheDuderinoAbides 2019-06-12
I dont really think thats what its about fren...
1 Its_All_Taken 2019-06-12
But it is, fren. These people are lost, trapped within their own minds. Just below the surface of conscious thought, they see that their existence is hollow.
Unable to silence their internal cries of inadequacy, they seek to shield themselves from them by becoming what society pities. To protect themselves from the harshness of normal life by becoming a perpetual dependent of others. A protected class.
But they will never be satisfied with what they find. Cursed to forever wander a barren path, they will seek their false god until it claims them. Forever lost.
1 purnya232 2019-06-12
you're confusing sex with gender, sex is binary ( unless you got some unfortunate chromosomes). gender is instead, according to these people, a social construct.
1 T_H_A_L_O_S 2019-06-12
He's not confusing anything, both are one and the same.
1 blaskowich 2019-06-12
Sex is biological, Gender is a word made up in the 80s by a nonfren
1 purnya232 2019-06-12
stuff is pretty much getting complex for no reason.
1 T_H_A_L_O_S 2019-06-12
It's not a word made up in the 80s; it's just that it's around that time at which it started being used to refer to someone's sex, which was likely caused by people associating sex with eroticism and thus choosing to use another word.
1 ARandomNiceGuy95 2019-06-12
Gender is not equivalent to sexuality from what I understand. This fren will not pretend to be an expert, but simply state his understanding. Gender is how we behave socially and what's expected. Our sex is determined biologically.
Granted I learned this from a ridiculously liberal university, but it does make a bit of sense. All the different genders though has taken this way too far. If you don't want to do what's expected of a man, that's fine. Same for a woman. But this movement has gotten out of control.
Please don't bop me frens :(
1 VenusUberAlles 2019-06-12
Thing is you’ve basically described personality and feelings. Doesn’t mean that gender is a thing different from sexuality. It especially doesn’t mean that there are more than two genders.
1 ARandomNiceGuy95 2019-06-12
I don't like the concept of multiple genders. But gender as a whole is something different that our sex determined biologically. I have a biochemistry degree and the word sex is explicitly used as a descriptive term for being male or female. Not gender.
They are feelings and personality, but also general behaviors.
I want it known though that I'm not trying to be rude towards frens, but we can't live in ignorance and try to say one word means the same as another when it doesn't.
1 VenusUberAlles 2019-06-12
Well I disagree. I see gender as a made-up concept used to make a false distinction between biological sex and you.
1 carrols827 2019-06-12
People will naturally follow the behavioral traits (‘gender role’) of their ‘sex’. This is the natural order of things. You can argue semantics about sex and gender, and sure the words don’t describe the same thing, but genders correlate with their sex, no matter how a person ‘feels’ about it. Every sex has a purpose that is to be fulfilled, the body isn’t designed to understand sex changes and other modern surgeries, which is why it causes so many health issues.
1 ARandomNiceGuy95 2019-06-12
Do you have any links or anything to further expand on this. I'd actually like to understand it better. I'm get a Ng Downvoted to hell for just talking.
And I treasure my karma.
1 carrols827 2019-06-12
This is one study that is comprehensive and almost all can agree has no agenda Here
1 MrEdinLaw 2019-06-12
I like how you think. Nice job
1 gotmybacklike 2019-06-12
Hard to sound like a fren when regurgitating propaganda and outdated scientific misunderstandings.
1 amWILLdaBeast 2019-06-12
It's harder to accept when you were wrong all along fren. Cognitive dissonance is a hell of a psychological fallacy. But if you read further into this thread you'll see I can handle that with grace.
1 AdamRuinsTheShoah 2019-06-12
Gender dysphoria is a fetish. Look up autogynephilia, especially if you think you have "gender dysphoria"
1 grantis_da_mantis 2019-06-12
Fren, this is a right wing sub
1 TheDuderinoAbides 2019-06-12
A right wing sub with few political posts or agenda. Im not the one who brought this up. Lets just keep anti-science propaganda out of this sub and all frens can get along
1 Noodle_Connoisseur 2019-06-12
Pretty sure transgenderism is anti science
1 TheDuderinoAbides 2019-06-12
Hehe. No. Science is everything. Even more than alt-right. Doesnt matter what your opinion is
1 NoodleFlavored 2019-06-12
“Doesn’t matter what your opinion is”
— Everyone on the left ever about anything ever
1 TheDuderinoAbides 2019-06-12
No. Only when it comes to science you dont get to have an opinion
1 NoodleFlavored 2019-06-12
Dude, what do you think science is? Science is entirely comprised of opinions and guesses. Guesses that have been proved over time, but are constantly subject to change. Back in ye olde days, science told us that sun orbited the Earth. Somebody had the “opinion” or idea, that no, that was wrong, they did their research and they changed science. Of course, there were morons in their day and age too who believed that any opinion that didn’t match up with their definition of science wasn’t valid. Don’t be the modern equivalent of them, history won’t smile on you for it.
Science is constantly changing, sometimes it’s right, sometimes it’s wrong. Advancements in science are built off of opinions, and idiots who try to suppress the opinions of others do nothing but make themselves look stupid and stop the progress of science toward reaching the Truth.
So be careful what you say, fren, and please don’t be an nonfren and try to repress the freedom of speech of others.
1 TheDuderinoAbides 2019-06-12
Repressing others? Oh thats rich. Lol. Wow you are dense:
Let’s look at the definition of opinion: Opinion- “A view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge.”
Science is the process of gaining knowledge through hypothesizing, observation, experiment, or otherwise gaining evidence that will either cause a hypothesis to be thrown out or become more supported. it is, in fact, the exact opposite of an opinion.
Science is based on knowledge and investigation. Its an extremely weak argument to suggest science is ‘just' one more opinion at the end of the day. So no.
Thank you for playing. I think we are done here.
1 HotDogGrass 2019-06-12
Science fren here! Gender stuff is simple biology but who says someone can't get surgery to become happy? Sure there's some mental issues but hey, whatever floats their boat.
Unless you force it on children and forcefully normalize it, then there's a problem.
1 109_countries 2019-06-12
If anybody tries to discredit this tranny shit their careers will be ruined by the leftist mob. Real scientific. Same thing goes for talking about race; you either toe the "we're all equal" line or lose your career.
1 Noodle_Connoisseur 2019-06-12
The fuck does that even mean
1 Noodle_Connoisseur 2019-06-12
Bop yourself
1 TheDuderinoAbides 2019-06-12
no u
1 agree-with-you 2019-06-12
No you both
1 TheDuderinoAbides 2019-06-12
No just him, actually
1 Noodle_Connoisseur 2019-06-12
No just you
1 TheDuderinoAbides 2019-06-12
Definitely not
1 T_H_A_L_O_S 2019-06-12
Bop!
1 ss13isaids 2019-06-12
Maybe try not normalizing a literal mental illness and we can talk
0 TheDuderinoAbides 2019-06-12
Source where its regarded as mental illness?
1 ss13isaids 2019-06-12
Literally just search up gender dysphoria twit
1 TheDuderinoAbides 2019-06-12
Maybe list your sources in your initial response like a grown up where you claim shit so I wont have to ask, you twit.
1 ss13isaids 2019-06-12
Well I thought since you’re such an expert, clearly you should know by now
1 TobinButtram523 2019-06-12
He should list his sources so that you can immediately reply and claim the source is propaganda? Maybe this fren has realized that there is no use arguing with a brick wall, such as yourself.
1 109_countries 2019-06-12
If transgenderism is real, it is a physical deformity. Your brain doesn't match your body.
1 109_countries 2019-06-12
Why would nature evolve two sexes and 37 genders, fren? How would that help the survival of a species? Are there any transgender animals? Do silverback gorillas chew off their cocks and try to have babies?
1 SnuffBunnyEmily 2019-06-12
Probably because most of you are mentally ill aspies railing against established science
1 msndrstdgenius 2019-06-12
fella I think it’s totally fine men can fuck men women can fuck women and women can fuck men and women can fuck men and we can all fuck but yeen gotta overthink gender anyone can be a bad bitch so in this case I’m the dude and will say. I abide.
1 [deleted] 2019-06-12
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1 HerpingDerps 2019-06-12
Worked just fine in the 50s. Progress for the sake of progress is usually bad, especially when it goes against our scientific understanding of the world.
1 NoodleFlavored 2019-06-12
And unfortunately, rather than help those frens, our society decides to keep slamming them against the pole over and over again.
1 TheDuderinoAbides 2019-06-12
How should society help?
1 109_countries 2019-06-12
That involves the longnose tribe and it is a very big, complicated problem.
0 NoodleFlavored 2019-06-12
I dunno, maybe by helping them come to terms with the gender they are rather than encourage them to mutilate themselves in a hopeless pursuit of becoming something they’re not and never will be?
People with gender dysphoria have a very high rate of suicide, it’s terrible. But for some reason, our society thinks that by egging on their dysphoria and confusing then further, it will help. Spoiler, it doesn’t. Suicide rates for people with gender dysphoria does not drop after ”transition,” typically the process of forcing themselves to become something they’re not makes their condition worse.
Encouraging someone’s gender dysphoria would be like telling someone diagnosed with anxiety that, instead of getting the proper help and medication they need, they should just give in to their condition and hide in a secluded room for the rest of their life. Obviously, that would not help the poor bloke with anxiety, and encouraging people with gender dysphoria to give in to their condition doesn’t help either.
Society should be helping these people come to terms with who they actually are, not leading them on some deluded quest of mental dysphoria.
1 TheDuderinoAbides 2019-06-12
Source for everything you claimed please
1 NoodleFlavored 2019-06-12
https://www.heritage.org/gender/commentary/sex-reassignment-doesnt-work-here-the-evidence
It says it’s a 15 minute read, think you can handle that?
1 TheDuderinoAbides 2019-06-12
Hehe. Think you can handle providing a more unbiased source?
Founded in 1973, The Heritage Foundation is a right-wing think tank. Its stated mission is to formulate and promote public policies based on the principles of "free enterprise, limited government, individual freedom, traditional American values, and a strong national defense."
Christ, what a bunch of nitwits... Not sure why I even bother with this
1 HKoftheForrest 2019-06-12
As opposed to the left wing think tank that Peter Boghossian and James Lindsay uncovered that is being awfully suppressed by the media for some reason.
1 TheDuderinoAbides 2019-06-12
Im sure there are biased sources and think tanks on the left as well. Never claimed otherwise
1 HKoftheForrest 2019-06-12
You base your life on them.
How much does your SRS going to cost you?
1 TheDuderinoAbides 2019-06-12
How so?
1 TheDuderinoAbides 2019-06-12
Never heard of SRS
1 ShulginStaffel 2019-06-12
It'll cost him everything in the end.
1 I_am_the_visual 2019-06-12
As opposed to actual scientists and professionals in their field who all say that gender reassignment works. Maybe try actually reading around on the subject if you genuinely care (of course you don't), rather than picking one source that agrees with your bigotry (written by other bigots) and going "Duuhhh yep! This proves I'm right!" Knuckle-dragger.
1 HKoftheForrest 2019-06-12
Maybe try harder not being a preachy narcissist?
Why come here and preach about your mental illness?
Nobody cares.
1 I_am_the_visual 2019-06-12
Why come here and preach about how much you hate people who are different to you? Go ahead and be a dick but using embarrassing baby talk to try to oh-so-subtly persuade other people to come down to your level is absolutely pathetic. The world is laughing at you as your beliefs become more and more fringe and derided.
1 HKoftheForrest 2019-06-12
Why are non-frens so easy to spot?
1 I_am_the_visual 2019-06-12
Non-frens = non-bigot, right? In which case I'm happy to be easy to spot.
Nice retort btw: "There are worse things in the world than me being a bigoted arsehole so by criticising me, you're the real arsehole..." Real top-tier thinking there numb-nuts.
This is why no one listens to you, except when they want a good chuckle.
1 HKoftheForrest 2019-06-12
No a non-fren is usually a bigot like you.
1 I_am_the_visual 2019-06-12
To be honest mate I just love how quickly this whole "frenly" mask slips. It's like when my toddler is playing make-believe but then forgets what she's playing and gets all flustered. Adorable really.
If you need to believe that in order to feel relevant then by all means go ahead. It must be lonely being so hate filled. I'm here if you want to open up about it babe.
1 TheDuderinoAbides 2019-06-12
Lol. This source is the biggest piece of biased propaganda Ive ever read. Im not sure if youre stupid enough to actually buy this or Im talking with a russian troll here rn.
1 rob_XI 2019-06-12
The idea that trans suicide rates are higher after post op surgery is common knowledge, why does he need sources lmao?
1 milordi 2019-06-12
in comparison to the rest of the population
Stop spreading your bullshit
1 rob_XI 2019-06-12
Why does it matter what they compare it to 😂Still doesn’t change the fact that trans people are killing themselves at alarming rates (dissatisfied with post op- sad reality they will never be the opposite gender).
The trans people who display regret towards their surgery are ultimately shunned by trans communities. Its sickening. Theres even subreddits about it.
Fuck off and go read a book or something
1 milordi 2019-06-12
Because it debunks your claim SRS doesn't help
1 rob_XI 2019-06-12
😂😂😂😂
1 ShulginStaffel 2019-06-12
🤡🌎👌🤩
1 I_am_the_visual 2019-06-12
Genuinely laughable that you act like you care. If you actually cared maybe you'd read the absolute fuck-ton of evidence written by professionals in their field that says that gender reassignment works. Or read the testimonies of people going through this who all say that the biggest issue they face is dealing with reactionary morons like you, claiming to care by pushing this whole "just force them to be 'normal', that'll help!" bullshit.
I know you're full of shit because the high suicide rate does fall to normal levels after transitioning. You'd know that if you care as much as you'd like people to believe.
Telling trans people to just "be normal" is like telling someone with spina bifida to just suck it up and walk like a "normal" human being, rather than using all the scientific research and understanding we have to find the most pragmatic and workable treatments and assistance. Why do you think you know better than medical professionals when it comes to treating complicated conditions like this? Or do you think there's some huge conspiracy to push something they know to be bad for patients just to piss off reactionaries like you?
Lot of unfenlyness in this comment section.... weird!
1 bigtoyaddict 2019-06-12
Why does /r/detrans exist?
1 sneakpeekbot 2019-06-12
Here's a sneak peek of /r/detrans using the top posts of all time!
#1: Gender reassignment surgery rarely leads to true happiness. I’m trans, had SRS and I absolutely regret this. What I regret even more is how the trans community keeps so many things hidden from those looking into getting body modification surgeries as extreme as GRS!
#2: The Cult
#3: MtF, transitioned in adolescence, "lived as a woman" for 17 years. I see no way out
I'm a bot, beep boop | Downvote to remove | Contact me | Info | Opt-out
1 [deleted] 2019-06-12
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1 loveCars 2019-06-12
Oof. Detrans community needs hugs from frens, fren
1 TPastore10ViniciusG 2019-06-12
Or they commit suicide because of discrt?
1 NoodleFlavored 2019-06-12
I’m sure that’s part of it, but people blame discrimination for a lot of things, when in reality, it’s really not that prevalent. Aside from a few extremists here and there, and occasionally some little kids who are too young to have grasped social manners, no one is going to actively bully trans people, the majority of people in this world, despite what the news (and Reddit) tells you, are actually very polite people.
No, while the few and far between cases of real discrimination may account for some of the problem, in reality, it’s the aggravating of a mental illness that drives these poor people to suicide. Rather than help them get the proper treatment, society tells them that they should give in the unfortunate malfunction in their head and let it control them and their life.
I speak bluntly about mental illnesses because I suffer heavily from anxiety, the real kind, diagnosed by a doctor, not the tumblr self diagnosed fraud kind. Anyway, once I found out that I suffered from this condition, I went to work fixing it. I didn’t give in to my illness and lock myself out from the world, because that would make things worse. When society encourages people to become something they’re not, they’re doing exactly that which they should not do, giving in to the illness.
0 berniemadoffmadeoff 2019-06-12
Fix thes frens with Electroconvulsive therapy
1 a-interestingusrname 2019-06-12
As a non fren I can say this is how it feels
3 Rj476 2019-06-12
This post does not spark frenship
1 TheDuderinoAbides 2019-06-12
Agreed.
1 PassionFruitSmoothie 2019-06-12
But it does spark truth and sometimes that's more important. Real frens speak up
1 TheDuderinoAbides 2019-06-12
No it doesnt.
1 boomoopoo 2019-06-12
Fuck off subverter
1 TheDuderinoAbides 2019-06-12
After you
1 boomoopoo 2019-06-12
So are you and your numale compadres having a good time “seizing” this sub through downvotes? There are more of us than you
1 TheDuderinoAbides 2019-06-12
I dont doubt it
1 Paladin_of_Prismo 2019-06-12
BOP NONFREN
Du hører ikke hjemme her.
1 ARandomNiceGuy95 2019-06-12
BOP
1 PassionFruitSmoothie 2019-06-12
post is being subverted by TOP MINDS O:
1 Paladin_of_Prismo 2019-06-12
B O P
2 khadi12 2019-06-12
Man i have been seeing too much politics in this sub lately i think we have forgotten to focus on true frenship
1 Melkutus 2019-06-12
Same. I just want to go back to funny pictures of our frens
1 [deleted] 2019-06-12
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1 ComradeKGBagent 2019-06-12
Same. Although the trampoline yesterday was nice and frenly.
1 [deleted] 2019-06-12
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1 Weirdo_doessomething 2019-06-12
Yeah. The mods should ban political posts.
1 cookingwithdegrelle 2019-06-12
Make like a sub called r/frenworldpolitics and have all that stuff go there.
(It’ll probably get banned tho)
1 ganggvnggvng 2019-06-12
get out ya clown
1 I_am_the_visual 2019-06-12
While I agree that this sub is just a (very) thinly veiled attempt at pushing reactionary bullshit, calling these sorts of views "political" is generous in the extreme! The idea that the best treatment for trans people is carefully managed transitioning isn't a "political opinion" it's just scientific fact backed by the vast majority of professionals in the field. Framing it as a political opinion is like this whole climate change debate... it's science versus idiots who'd rather deny science because it's inconvenient for their world view/bottom line.
And even if allowing people to transition isn't necessarily the best treatment, how is it anyone else's business? The people pushing this nonsense are the same ones who claim to believe in small government and that no one should be allowed to interfere with people's private business (which is a legitimate political opinion). Until that involves doing something they find "icky"... then we all need to stick our fucking noses in and tell them what we think. Hmmm.
1 jivellemcgee 2019-06-12
It's more a response to the trans community trying to force their views onto everyone else instead of keeping it to themselves
1 I_am_the_visual 2019-06-12
Right on cue: "They're free to do whatever they want but don't expect me to play along...."
How exactly does it affect you in any way whatsoever? You have to go more out of your way to be a dick to trans people than just to ignore it. So ignore it and go on with your life. Simple!
Going on the internet and making posts about how you disagree with their lifestyle isn't exactly "keeping it to yourself" is it? The hypocrisy of people who claim they hate LGBT issues being shoved down their throat then going out of their way to argue against them is astounding! Seriously, if you don't like it ignore it. I guarantee there are aspects of your life that people don't agree with but they let you get on with it because it's not their fucking business.
1 DJohny1 2019-06-12
how do you not see that everyone’s life impacts society, you’re not an individual with no connection to anyone else, we are all intertwined by our values, beliefs and the choices we make. The fact that you want to encourage mentally ill people to get permanent surgery will not impact me directly but it will impact the rest of society indirectly, by normalizing that kind of destructive behavior. And the biggest problem is the way normalizing degeneracy will affect the most impressionable and naive among us, baby frens.
1 I_am_the_visual 2019-06-12
I've never encouraged anyone to get surgery, it's none of my damn business. I'm happy to leave it up to the individual and medical professionals to decide what's best. But her you are encouraging people to ignore medical evidence because you think the treatment is "degeneracy"... How is that helping society, genius? You think you can just wish away things like gender dysphoria because it makes you feel icky... Sorry bud, not going to happen. So why not let these people decide what is best for them and stay the hell out of it. If you really do care about society as a whole, as opposed to clutching your pearls and screaming "think of the children!!"
1 DJohny1 2019-06-12
Cool, just let the obviously mentally unstable person decide what they want to do, im guessing you don’t disagree with their choice to commit suicide either, just let them do whatever they think is best, would you let an anorexic person not eat because they decided not to? It’s helping by not normalizing it, these people need help not your pity. I can’t wish it away, but therapy can fix it, what doesn’t fix it is letting the problem spread by calling it normal. I’m presenting a possibility for them to cure their mental illness and then become a functional portion of society, by having jobs, children and responsibility, and you’re presenting letting them do whatever they want, which is in most cases either ends with suicide or not having children due to the permanent surgery.
The way you express yourself is cringing me to shit. Nonfren.
1 [deleted] 2019-06-12
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1 BBgecko 2019-06-12
Long paragraphs hurt my brain, fren.
1 derpyderpopoulos 2019-06-12
Fren, curious about your take on these stories
https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/heres-the-full-recording-of-wilfrid-laurier-reprimanding-lindsay-shepherd-for-showing-a-jordan-peterson-video
https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/canadian-judge-strips-transgender-childs-parents-of-rights/
https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/trans-athletes-make-great-gains-yet-resentment-still-flares-n975646
fren, it sorta seems like this whole trans movement is more than just acting feminine if you feel feminine (I think people have always done that). It sorta seems like the stuff that’s new is precisely the demands on society and people around them.
1 I_am_the_visual 2019-06-12
Jordan Peterson is a charlatan, a hack and a shill - he was completely lying about that whole C-16 thing or whatever it was. Look in to it. r/enoughpetersonspam
You're really going to compare having to tolerate trans people with displaying pornography in public...? I mean you know that's insane, right? If not I don't even know where to start.
1 derpyderpopoulos 2019-06-12
“Tolerate” trans people? Not very progressive of you, fren. You should celebrate them!
1 I_am_the_visual 2019-06-12
Haha great retort! You certainly showed me! Almost as much as if you actually had a decent argument to make.
1 derpyderpopoulos 2019-06-12
I don’t understand why you’re getting mad, fren. I just said you should be a decent human being and celebrate trans people. How does it affect you to celebrate them?
1 [deleted] 2019-06-12
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1 duckisscary 2019-06-12
How is it anyone else business if I want to inject meth in to my pepee fren?
1 [deleted] 2019-06-12
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-1 Kanbaru-Fan 2019-06-12
Because it's an alt-right propaganda tool. Glad the normal users finally seem to notice...
1 Grexpex180 2019-06-12
shut up dick vaccum
1 Kanbaru-Fan 2019-06-12
Your parents must be delighted about your personality. Here's hoping your still young and will turn out to be a better person one day.
1 MrEdinLaw 2019-06-12
And i honestly hope that one day you can grow and leave the mental box you gave yourself...
1 [deleted] 2019-06-12
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2 ShulginStaffel 2019-06-12
I think off-roading has damaged a few of my former frens. I don't know if I should pity them or just hope that they don't feel too much pain when they eventually sleep. :/
1 antipmoing 2019-06-12
Damn that is deep. Why do you think that?
1 ShulginStaffel 2019-06-12
I watched one man go from an awkward neet who is good at 3D scanning and modeling into a furry bat "girl".
With the rates of self forever sleep among those people being what they are, I know what's coming one unfortunate day.
I don't want more dead friends.
1 I_am_the_visual 2019-06-12
Suicide rates are far higher among trans people before they transition than after. If you genuinely care about your friend the best thing you can do is try to accept them whatever they decide to do or be. How does it hurt you to let them do whatever they feel like they need to do?
1 bigtoyaddict 2019-06-12
https://www.reddit.com/r/detrans/comments/c01i1z/i_want_to_die
1 beetard 2019-06-12
Damn that's a sad way to start my day
1 I_am_the_visual 2019-06-12
What does this prove?
That is tragic and I truly hope that person gets the help they need but it tells us nothing about the overall benefit of transitioning. And it certainly doesn't suggest that being supportive of your friends who are going through this is in any way the wrong thing to do.
1 throwawayl11 2019-06-12
Chemotherapy doesn't have a 100% success rate either, yet no one's lobbying against it.
1 MrEdinLaw 2019-06-12
This doesn't have any success
1 throwawayl11 2019-06-12
Every study done comparing pre-transition and post-transition trans people shows significant success.
1 MrEdinLaw 2019-06-12
Not sure what you mean by success. Chemoterapy is a try to fix something. It's awesome if it works but if not, nothing got worse. So in any case it can just improve someone's life. But your case it's mostly just destroying lives of people
1 throwawayl11 2019-06-12
Reducing/eliminating gender dysphoria, improving general mental health, and lowering suicide attempt rates.
Sure, but it typically does work, that's the point. All evidence found supports this. We will gain accuracy/precision in diagnosis the more research we do on trans people.
Can you provide any studies showing trans people are worse off after transitioning than they were before?
1 MrEdinLaw 2019-06-12
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5436370/
0 throwawayl11 2019-06-12
Where's the comparison with pre-transition people? This is saying their lifetime rates of suicide attempts is significantly higher than the general average. I don't deny that. The important piece is when are those attempts taking place, before transitioning or after?
This study isn't evaluating the effectiveness of transition in relation to suicide attempts.
1 MrEdinLaw 2019-06-12
Tbh all trans start with one thing. "Im not happy with my body" some get over it or get it fixed but a lot dont. Its a thing that starts bad...
0 throwawayl11 2019-06-12
That's my point. People suffering from gender dysphoria are going to have mental health issues and will be more likely to attempt suicide than those who don't.
That isn't disputed.
Transitioning has shown in the vast majority of cases to improve mental health and reduce suicidal tendencies in gender dysphoric individuals. Repeating that they're suicide risks isn't disproving that, unless your data shows transitioning increases the risk.
Here's a cross study of 50+ studies on the effects of transitioning on the well-being of trans people:
https://whatweknow.inequality.cornell.edu/topics/lgbt-equality/what-does-the-scholarly-research-say-about-the-well-being-of-transgender-people/
1 bigtoyaddict 2019-06-12
We only give chemotherapy to those that really have cancer.
1 throwawayl11 2019-06-12
This is more an argument regarding diagnosis accuracy than treatment effectiveness. Whether or not we can accurately determine if someone is trans is irrelevant to how we help the ones who truly are.
1 bigtoyaddict 2019-06-12
How do we differentiate between a 3 year old boy that likes to wear dresses and a 3 year old trans girl?
My issue is entirely one of diagnosing gender non-conforming life immediately as trans.
1 throwawayl11 2019-06-12
It's a perfectly reasonable concern. Especially since it's heavily portrayed in media as "they like girl toys/clothes so they're a girl".
There's a process for evaluating children and it's pretty effective.
The vast majority of children who are evaluated by gender clinics for gender ddysphoric symptoms are found to not meet the criteria for it and do not transition. Roughly 70-85% depending on the study. It's important that we don't have false positives, which is why socially transitioning is very helpful.
For the children who show consistent and persistent gender dysphoria through years of evaluation, they could be given puberty blockers and hormone replacement therapy to avoid exacerbating their gender dysphoria by experiencing puberty. Of these children, less than 1% are found to regret the medical intervention.
1 bigtoyaddict 2019-06-12
Doesn't the fact that /r/detrans exist mean that we should slow down on throwing hormone blockers to every kid that feels a little different?
1 throwawayl11 2019-06-12
I mentioned this in my other reply, but the vast majority of people who transitioned as children are not the detransitioners. That's more often than not adults who didn't have the same lengthy evaluation, (which is one possible failure point), and also might detransition because they aren't happy with the results. Transitioning as an adult is less likely to be as effective, as they've already undergone puberty, which typically makes their gender dysphoria worse.
I personally know a trans person who detransitioned because of family pressure, as they're very conservative. They still maintained they were trans and a girl, but they didn't feel their family would ever accept them.
This is hardly an objective argument, but I'd also point out that sub has roughly 2,700 subs whereas subs like r/traaaaaaannnnnnnnnns has over 100,000. Again, that's hardly a controlled experiment lol, but the existence of people who were incorrectly diagnosed or who detransitioned for other reasons are a very small percentage as it is.
1 ShulginStaffel 2019-06-12
Do you apply the same logic to a fren who takes up heroin?
You sound like a longnose to me.
1 I_am_the_visual 2019-06-12
Being trans is the same as being a heroine addict... get a load of big-brain over here!
1 ShulginStaffel 2019-06-12
Yes, the patterns of behavior are similarly destructive. If one keeps searching for higher degrees of dopamine stimulation through either substance abuse or deviant behavior, this pattern will generally lead to a path of self destruction.
1 I_am_the_visual 2019-06-12
"Deviant behaviour".... that's completely subjective. What if I decide you're a deviant? Can I start poking my nose in your business and shaming you?
Dress it up however you want, it's just plain old fashioned bigotry. You don't agree with someone's lifestyle so you think it's your place to judge them for trying to find ways to cope.
Let's say you did have a friend with a heroin addiction - what do you think is more helpful; telling them how deviant and shameful their addiction is, or supporting whatever treatment they think will help them come off it? You're far more interested in trying to get people to live the life you think they should than actually supporting someone through a difficult situation.
2 ShulginStaffel 2019-06-12
Fren, if you helped a heroin addict like you "help" trans people, you'd be showing them where to get fent from.
Encouraging an illness doesn't cure it. You don't help a psychotic by encouraging the delusions.
1 TobinButtram523 2019-06-12
Yes, addiction and gender dysphoria are both mental illnesses.
1 Chupalla_Boi 2019-06-12
trans are radical centrists or something
1 Chupalla_Boi 2019-06-12
Why this comment was downvoted you fucking spergs, I'm mocking trannies
1 [deleted] 2019-06-12
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1 [deleted] 2019-06-12
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1 granninja 2019-06-12
Oof
1 thereallygoodplayer 2019-06-12
This is not a frenly post
Can we lay off of politics?
1 PassionFruitSmoothie 2019-06-12
How long have you been in fren world
1 king-guy 2019-06-12
Obviously longer than you if you think this is a supposed to be a political sub.
1 PassionFruitSmoothie 2019-06-12
You're not one of us.
1 king-guy 2019-06-12
Looking through post history is super cringe bro
1 my_jellyfish 2019-06-12
lol ur history is even worse my man
1 derpyderpopoulos 2019-06-12
BOP
1 cookedpotato 2019-06-12
I've been here since before the frenelection so you must be full of shit.
1 king-guy 2019-06-12
So you should know just as well as me that this sub is wayyyy more politically now focused than ever before
1 PassionFruitSmoothie 2019-06-12
Nonfren detected.
1 cookedpotato 2019-06-12
But it's not tho
1 Paladin_of_Prismo 2019-06-12
BOP
1 Paladin_of_Prismo 2019-06-12
BOP NONFREN
1 DoomProGamer 2019-06-12
fren pls. lay off for a bit
1 xpepperx 2019-06-12
/u/tupptupp_XD
1 Tupptupp_XD 2019-06-12
Wtf is this sub lmao
1 ANiceCitrusFriend 2019-06-12
too overt fren, dial it down
1 I_am_the_visual 2019-06-12
So your problem isn't the disgusting transphobia, it's that they made it too obvious? You're a scum bag.
1 ANiceCitrusFriend 2019-06-12
(oi, dingus, shush)
1 HerpingDerps 2019-06-12
What, it's just a helpful visual aid to teach frens how science works
1 ITrollRedditEveryDay 2019-06-12
lol REE
1 [deleted] 2019-06-12
[deleted]
1 [deleted] 2019-06-12
[removed]
1 Bennybooboo226 2019-06-12
Frens I regret my choice can I choose other path
1 purnya232 2019-06-12
r/egg_irl
1 Paladin_of_Prismo 2019-06-12
BOP
1 ser-of-cannabis 2019-06-12
You can pretend whatever you want, fren!
1 Master_Jellybean 2019-06-12
I went right fren :)
1 VanuCultist 2019-06-12
before your parents even had sex. Its determined by meiosis in the testicles.
1 [deleted] 2019-06-12
[removed]
1 Dithmarschenn 2019-06-12
sometimes you make the wrong turn
1 offbrandsandals 2019-06-12
i can’t tell if this is transphobic or not.
1 Its_All_Taken 2019-06-12
Sorry fren, but transition isn't actually possible. Only imitation.
1 offbrandsandals 2019-06-12
that’s gonna be a yikes from me 😔 enjoy your time here frens, i must go.
1 Its_All_Taken 2019-06-12
A big yikes indeed fren, but sometimes the biggest yikes are the most truthful.
1 Escitalopram111 2019-06-12
Yikes, sweaty! *chugs soylent
1 CocalarPrajitCuBMW 2019-06-12
Where are the other 613,5 paths, fren??
1 DredgenZeta 2019-06-12
Gone, reduced to atoms
1 Bellatrix087 2019-06-12
Sex is bimodal, meaning yes, chromosomes strongly correlate to sex, but they do not determine sex itself. That's why there are intersex people.
1 MrEdinLaw 2019-06-12
The 23rd pair of chromosomes define if male or female... That's kinda it. There are special cases with double x in men or women but those are so rare that they're defined as disorders.
1 Escitalopram111 2019-06-12
We can’t just choose our sex? Non frenly :(
1 MrEdinLaw 2019-06-12
You can act like the other sex if it makes you feel better. And maybe if people acted like you really are you won't think how you can naturally never be that. But you still can't make people act against their will just because you are insecure about it. As much as you think you know how it is, everyone else does too. Its ok to have different opinions but its not ok to force your opinon on someone.
1 Escitalopram111 2019-06-12
Guess I always need to add /s huh.
1 MrEdinLaw 2019-06-12
Honestly... In this age and time... We really gotta be clear with each other what we want and what we're saying. After seeing everything you expect anything from people nowdays.
Sorry for missinterpreting your comment. I hope mine still makes sense for you.
1 beetard 2019-06-12
Especially in text form. It's getting harder to distinguish between satire and reality so, idk man. /s tag used more liberally?
1 MrEdinLaw 2019-06-12
Just use it when you're really sarcastic somewhere
1 BK-ash 2019-06-12
what do you mean? Arent hermaphrodites a mutation?
1 wetsoup 2019-06-12
this isn't frenly. whats with all the political stuff here
1 LordRade 2019-06-12
Since when science is politics?
1 Thats_Cool_bro 2019-06-12
top minds here we go frens!
1 Smol_Bicep 2019-06-12
Hmmm. Lots of people who never post here saying this post isnt frenly 🤔
1 ItzJizzmyBatch 2019-06-12
Your post history speaks for itself
1 Smol_Bicep 2019-06-12
Its epic
1 HotDogGrass 2019-06-12
Frens, it's not political, it's scientific! When a person is gestating in the womb, certain parts of the DNA develop before the chromosomes choose XY or XX. Because of this, some things are the useless on men/women. Nipples on men being the most known example.
1 MrEdinLaw 2019-06-12
We all start our as women but some continue to be women and some have the Y chromosome to develop further as men.
1 [deleted] 2019-06-12
[removed]
1 alvis-is-ontos 2019-06-12
Go to the center and become both
1 BK-ash 2019-06-12
That's a disorder
1 alvis-is-ontos 2019-06-12
Great ill just kill myself now
1 BK-ash 2019-06-12
Good
1 Someonedm 2019-06-12
r/traa
1 Garovane 2019-06-12
My man 💙
1 schemadrome 2019-06-12
swipe right, fren, swipe right
1 Thot_patrol_nanoda 2019-06-12
But you went straight and bopped your head :D
1 OOFZombies 2019-06-12
Fren, I’m very nervous. Somebody told me this is “hates peach,” but I thought that everyone liked peaches!
1 RoadWork_Ahead 2019-06-12
Peach are good, fren.
1 polfunny 2019-06-12
https://www.intersexequality.com/how-common-is-intersex-in-humans/
1 BK-ash 2019-06-12
It's very rare, and is a disorder
1 polfunny 2019-06-12
1) being intersex is statistically more likely than having red-hairs and 2% of the population is not that rare since it's very likely that you will encounter someone intersex in your life 2) it's not a disorder, a disorder can be cured and prevents you from having a normal life, being intersex is a genetic syndrome, that means it cannot be "cured" and that even if we had the chance to cure it a person could still live a normal life without "curing" it 3) all of the above doesn't change that the "meme" is just factually incorrect
1 BK-ash 2019-06-12
Okay, mabye I used the wrong wording. Not exactly a disorder, more like a condition.
It's still rare. Just because it isnt all that rare does not make it not rare.
3) Well the meme is correct, normally you either are a Male or a female, unless something is off
1 polfunny 2019-06-12
Well the problem is that you are conflating the term normal with likely/non rare: only because something is rare that doesn't make it not normal, having red hair, for example, is rare but you would never call someone with red hair not normal, even though having red hair is a genetic mutation ( you could say "something is off"). In the same way being intersex does not make you not normal, unless it prevents you from having a normal life (Which it often doesn't), so saying "you're either male or female" it's as wrong as saying "there are four hair colors (black, brown, blonde and grey)", both are at least incorrect because they do not take in account a part of the population, even if small.
1 BK-ash 2019-06-12
Since when does significant mean you are likely to meet one in your lifetime? You are probably gonna meet almost every ttoe of person in your lifetime. And it's still a large abnormality, in normal circumstances this doesnt happen. Assuming the meme is ment to be a normal circumstance, it doesnt happen.
Also this is just a meme ment to mock transgenders, I dont see why it would involve intersex people
1 polfunny 2019-06-12
1) well 2% is a very significant part of the population nonetheless, the likely hood of how meeting an intersex person was just an example to make understand how it's actually a pretty large amount of people, and 2% mean that you have a pretty high chance of encountering an intersex person daily (if you see 25 different people every day you will see about 15 intersex people per month, and more than 180 every year), not one in your lifetime.
2) abnormality is more a social than a scientific term, just because something is unlikely doesn't make it abnormal, you would never say "owning a turtle as a pet makes you abnormal" despite the % of the population owning it, usually people define someone as normal if the life they live is "standard" in the place they live in, and plenty of intersex people are able to live a standard life. Another way that people use the word normal is good/bad, for example you would not say that going to jail is normal despite the % of the population that goes to jail during their life time, and being intersex is not inherently worse/better than being male/female.
3) this is a meme made to mock transgenders, but it specifically says that DNA is either male or female, which is just untrue
1 BK-ash 2019-06-12
???? what? It is a litteral abnormality, as in humans were specifically made to be either Male or Female, and that Intersex isnt exactly supposed to be either.
When did I mention anything about intersex people living worse lives or being worse than normal people? All I'm saying is that it makes sense that he wouldnt include intersex people, as this is a meme made to mock transgenders, where its saying you are born Male or female (because under objectively NORMAL circumstances where the person being born does not have a physically abnormal condition) and implying that you cannot choose later in life.
1 polfunny 2019-06-12
"humans were specifically made to be either male or female" no one "made" humans, humans are just derived by a genetic mutation (you might call it an abnormality) from the previous species, so saying "humans are supposed to be this or that" is just an expectation that we have and if someone doesn't fullfil that expectation that does not necessarily make it abnormal (depending on how you define it)
Plus abnormality can literally mean 7 different things
"Abnormality has been defined in a number of ways, including: unusual behaviour that is different from the norm; behaviour that doesnot conform to social expectations or demands; statistical infrequency; failure to function adequately; presence of pronounced psychological suffering or distress; deviation from ideal..." and outside the scientific field is generally used as a way of saying "failure to function adequately" or "behavior that doesn't conform to social expectations or demands" so when I talked about intersex people having a "normal" life that was what I was referring to.
I can tell that probably you are referring to "statistical infrequency" but it being unlikely doesn't make it not real, so saying "you are either male or female" it's just incorrect, you could say "you are usually(or normally) either male or female" and not be incorrect but that just wasn't what the meme was saying.
1 BK-ash 2019-06-12
I'm not talking about statistical infrequently, altough I will admit that plays a part of it. I am saying it is abnormal as in that isnt supposed to happen, on a biological level.
God you sound so much like you are trying to be smart, turning what could have been a few sentences into an entire lecture, and overanalyzing a fucking meme on r/frenworld about how transgenderism is unnatural by criticizing it for not including you're rare condition
1 polfunny 2019-06-12
What do you mean is supposed to happen? Nothing is supposed to happen in nature you realize that right? Things just happen, some things happen more frequently than others so we expect it to happen again in the same way, but that's just not how nature works. Plus I've never overanalyzed the meme, the meme just said "there's either A or B" and I said "well, there is also C" and sorry if I'm being too long it's just that English isn't my primary language and I'm trying to explain myself best as I can
1 BK-ash 2019-06-12
Not really, as some stuff are ment to be certian ways. The entire reason men and women exist on a biological level is for reproduction, and someone who has both is very obviously a sort of physical "deformity" I guess you could say, I cant really think if the correct word. Their DNA, or chromosomes or whatever is just messed up.
I get what you are trying to say, that there is a C, but the C isnt exactly supposed to happen, and the meme gas nothing to do with it, other than implying there is inkt an A and B
1 Britkek 2019-06-12
Easy mode or hard mode? 🤔
1 gorkaarve 2019-06-12
Right in the middle
1 Darth4212 2019-06-12
Frens are always born with the gender their chromosomes decided. A nonfren removing a frens dick doesn't make him a woman
1 Pusheyy 2019-06-12
i find it ironic seeing this post at this time because im currently thinking about how i would tell my parents im trans
1 ser-of-cannabis 2019-06-12
You can pretend to be whatever you want to be, fren. Do what makes you happy. Just don’t be upset if your parents or others don’t want to play along.
1 Dysfunctional_Orphan 2019-06-12
dna is a nofren
1 daffydanazi 2019-06-12
LIBTARDS TROLLED EPIC STYLE
1 karanzinho 2019-06-12
Isn't rhis a bit too mu...
Lol joking BOP THE NONFRENS GENDER WAR NOW!
1 TheDuderinoAbides 2019-06-12
no u
0 TheDuderinoAbides 2019-06-12
Yes. Thats exactly what I meant. You are very smart !
1 Its_All_Taken 2019-06-12
But it is, fren. These people are lost, trapped within their own minds. Just below the surface of conscious thought, they see that their existence is hollow.
Unable to silence their internal cries of inadequacy, they seek to shield themselves from them by becoming what society pities. To protect themselves from the harshness of normal life by becoming a perpetual dependent of others. A protected class.
But they will never be satisfied with what they find. Cursed to forever wander a barren path, they will seek their false god until it claims them. Forever lost.
1 BK-ash 2019-06-12
It's very rare, and is a disorder
1 rob_XI 2019-06-12
😂😂😂😂
1 RoadWork_Ahead 2019-06-12
Peach are good, fren.
1 ShulginStaffel 2019-06-12
🤡🌎👌🤩
1 throwawayl11 2019-06-12
It's a perfectly reasonable concern. Especially since it's heavily portrayed in media as "they like girl toys/clothes so they're a girl".
There's a process for evaluating children and it's pretty effective.
The vast majority of children who are evaluated by gender clinics for gender ddysphoric symptoms are found to not meet the criteria for it and do not transition. Roughly 70-85% depending on the study. It's important that we don't have false positives, which is why socially transitioning is very helpful.
For the children who show consistent and persistent gender dysphoria through years of evaluation, they could be given puberty blockers and hormone replacement therapy to avoid exacerbating their gender dysphoria by experiencing puberty. Of these children, less than 1% are found to regret the medical intervention.
1 ItzJizzmyBatch 2019-06-12
Your post history speaks for itself
1 DyslexicBrad 2019-06-12
I have to strongly disagree with you there fren. Firstly it costs almost nothing for you mental to accommodate these situations. How much mental energy does it take for you to call someone by a different name? Do you not have any frens with nicknames? And this small point of debate actually has widely reaching utilitarian prospects.
Gender is a social construct built around social and cultural norms. It is fundamentally different to sex. It's pretty easy to show that there is a difference, since all that you need to do is show that the same person in two different societies is the same sex but is seen as having a different/abnormal gender. Take a woman with short hair and wearing pants and a button down shirt and show them to someone from a few hundred years ago and they assume she is a man. Take a baby swaddled in pink and show them to someone from today and someone from a hundred years ago, and they'll both assume different genders. But the person's sex has stayed the same the entire time. Therefore, it can be seen that gender and sex are indeed separate. That sex is determined by biological factors, while gender is determined by social and cultural factors.
Once you accept this truth fren, things start to change. It's not a difficult task to call someone the right pronouns or the right name, because that is how they express and hence what their actual gender is. You don't have to bend over backwards to reach that point, rather, it is just how things are. And this has wide-reaching implications on improving things for everyfren as well. Gender is a social construct, so why does child custody default to favouring women? Why are we ok with men dying in the front lines but not women? Why are men assumed to be better workers than women? Why is it that being a stay at home mum is more respectable than being a stay at home dad?
Suddenly, you realise there's a lot of issues that can be fixed here. Accepting trans frens is simply the smallest and easiest step. They make it clear for you what gender they express as, they correct you if you're wrong (usually politely), and as you said yourself fren, they are a minority so you're unlikely to encounter the issue very much. But understand that being frenly is always the best option, and that this is a small microcosm that reflect a larger reality that your utilitarian ideology can surely understand the impact of. Noone is asking for social treatment or extra rights fren, they're only asking you to treat them exactly as you'd treat anyone else: By calling them by their name and referring to them as the right gender.